I’m a huge fan of your music and I really enjoyed reading your reflections on this. I have thought a lot about this and one of the greatest perspectives on hell that I’ve ever seen is in CS Lewis’s book the great divorce. I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
I appreciate your vulnerability and honesty, Audrey. I have friends and family members who also share your newfound beliefs about Hell either being empty or not existing at all. While I understand your perspective and your reasons for arriving there, I must pose a simple question. How do you reconcile scripture with your new belief about Hell? What are we to make of the many passages of scripture in which Yeshua Himself discusses the reality of Hell at length?
This was insightful. Thank you, Audrey for sharing your journey and struggles with us.
I do want to challenge your thinking about hell in one way: what kind of God would allow sin to go unpunished? I’m sure you have already taken your mind to that place - but I have always reconciled my questions and struggles with hell with it being the most “unloving” thing for God to not have consequences for the evil that rules the world. Hell is meant for Satan... and those who follow him. God created mankind in His image, giving us free will and in His plan to punish evil... He is merciful enough to give everyone an opportunity to know Him, through experiencing creation, through experiencing His love, through His Holy Spirit at work within believers everywhere... all with the plan to provide a way for redemption through Jesus. It is the only perfect scenario I can fathom for an all-loving, all-powerful, just and merciful God.
This was awesome, Audrey. You are putting words to the feelings of many like you. I am still processing this whole thing, and your story has many parallels to my own - though I'm still in the middle of this process. Being raised Southern Baptist, this kind of hell theology is deeply ingrained in my psyche and unraveling and untangling has been very stressful. Why do we have such a difficult time believing that God is that good? I have wrestled with feelings of being a heretic. Reading Brian Zahnd's book Sinners In the Hands of a Loving God was an eye-opener, and deeply healing. I was able to digest his theology better than similar attempts by Rob Bell and Richard Rohr (both whom I respect, but can't seem to buy 100%). One of my contentions is the problem of evil. Are demons nothing more than personified psychological maladies? Is there a literal devil? There seems to be more going on here, at least to me. But I appreciate your openness. (If I had a guess, I'd say you're an Enneagram 4 like me, but I could be wrong.) We wrestle on...
This is beautiful to read as for me the struggle with God is part of making sense of the Sacred in all of life. I have deeply appreciated your openness about porn and your changing beliefs. I can't think of anything more life-giving and authentic.
Thanks for sharing this, it's really helpful for me as I'm trying to deconstruct my evangelical experiences. I really appreciate your courage and your refusal to conform to the standards of mainstream evangelicalism. I'm so sorry for the discrimination and trauma you've experienced. Thank you for being willing to talk about it and benefit others with your experiences.
Thanks for sharing, Audrey. As a longtime Christian, Catholic listener of yours, I still respect and appreciate you to no end. Just a couple points on this:
(1) I don't think your conclusions here are, in the main, necessarily incompatible with what Christian metaphysical reflection from the very early Church onwards has held: that all creaturely being is a participation in God's being, that evil is nothing substantial but rather a privation, and that to the extent that anything IS at all, it is good, true, beautiful, and indeed "inseparably" united to God. So when we *experience* separation from God, it's in fact on the side of our experience, not on the side of God's nature or disposition.
(2) Catholic doctrine does present Hell as a hypothetical possibility, but that's it. Really, it's an attempt to account for these *experiences* we have (again, not reality!) of separation from God and for our capacities for self-imprisonment within certain states (e.g., when we allow ourselves to be consumed with hatred), along with the belief that God always invites us and never "forces" us. If you've read _The Last Battle_ in the Narnia series, think of the dwarfs who prefer to think they're in their own little world even though they're *actually* in the middle of Aslan's country! So Hell is a hypothesis that there *could* exist people like those dwarfs. But this has almost nothing in common with the ideas you were raised with, don't you think?
Hi, this is my first time reading your blog because Twitter decided to highlight it to me. I had first come across you via recovery from pornography materials.
I was trying to understand what you believe about hell. It seems you reject both conscious hell and aniliation. Do you believe all get saved eventually?
If we insist on the idea of divine justice, then we either believe that the cross accomplished divine justice or not. Why would God send Jesus to die, only to have his death not accomplish the actual goal?
Of course He accomplished the goal. But people still have to choose to exercise their own free will in order to personally receive that justice (or pardon) for themselves. Many people reject God’s free gift and willingly choose Hell. God won’t override someone else’s free will. He can’t rescue someone who doesn’t want to be rescued. Are you aware of how much scripture you have to cut out and throw away in order to hold your viewpoint?
Thank you for sharing this Audrey. In the past decade I’ve gone through what sounds like a remarkably similar journey of unraveling religious trauma and a very late OCD diagnosis.
The phrase you slipped in - unable to experience the “feeling of certainty” - is interesting to see in my current context. Treatment for OCD requires embracing uncertainty. I can’t have all the answers and I’m slowly learning how to live with that.
For me - I took a similar path. This view of hell is too terrible for me to live with in a healthy way. The looming threat of “believe... or else” just couldn’t work with my brain. And I’m not one to half-believe or somewhat assent. So I walked away. Even just reading this brought back those feelings deeply embedded in my chest. Probably a sign I still have more to process.
Interestingly - While’s coming from a very different intellectual perspective, the former trad writer Steve Skojec has a remarkably similar experience that’s also OCD tinted. His writing now focuses around themes of thr impossibility if knowing + struggling with a religion that makes lofty claims which aren’t actually taken to logical conclusions by most followers. Just one example.
I’m a huge fan of your music and I really enjoyed reading your reflections on this. I have thought a lot about this and one of the greatest perspectives on hell that I’ve ever seen is in CS Lewis’s book the great divorce. I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
I appreciate your vulnerability and honesty, Audrey. I have friends and family members who also share your newfound beliefs about Hell either being empty or not existing at all. While I understand your perspective and your reasons for arriving there, I must pose a simple question. How do you reconcile scripture with your new belief about Hell? What are we to make of the many passages of scripture in which Yeshua Himself discusses the reality of Hell at length?
Read "Love Wins" and entertain the possibility that God might be teaching you the greatest freeing truth possible through Audrey's and Rob's words.
This was insightful. Thank you, Audrey for sharing your journey and struggles with us.
I do want to challenge your thinking about hell in one way: what kind of God would allow sin to go unpunished? I’m sure you have already taken your mind to that place - but I have always reconciled my questions and struggles with hell with it being the most “unloving” thing for God to not have consequences for the evil that rules the world. Hell is meant for Satan... and those who follow him. God created mankind in His image, giving us free will and in His plan to punish evil... He is merciful enough to give everyone an opportunity to know Him, through experiencing creation, through experiencing His love, through His Holy Spirit at work within believers everywhere... all with the plan to provide a way for redemption through Jesus. It is the only perfect scenario I can fathom for an all-loving, all-powerful, just and merciful God.
This was awesome, Audrey. You are putting words to the feelings of many like you. I am still processing this whole thing, and your story has many parallels to my own - though I'm still in the middle of this process. Being raised Southern Baptist, this kind of hell theology is deeply ingrained in my psyche and unraveling and untangling has been very stressful. Why do we have such a difficult time believing that God is that good? I have wrestled with feelings of being a heretic. Reading Brian Zahnd's book Sinners In the Hands of a Loving God was an eye-opener, and deeply healing. I was able to digest his theology better than similar attempts by Rob Bell and Richard Rohr (both whom I respect, but can't seem to buy 100%). One of my contentions is the problem of evil. Are demons nothing more than personified psychological maladies? Is there a literal devil? There seems to be more going on here, at least to me. But I appreciate your openness. (If I had a guess, I'd say you're an Enneagram 4 like me, but I could be wrong.) We wrestle on...
I continue to just love your authenticity, however strange the paths it may seem to others to lead you!
This is beautiful to read as for me the struggle with God is part of making sense of the Sacred in all of life. I have deeply appreciated your openness about porn and your changing beliefs. I can't think of anything more life-giving and authentic.
Thanks for sharing this, it's really helpful for me as I'm trying to deconstruct my evangelical experiences. I really appreciate your courage and your refusal to conform to the standards of mainstream evangelicalism. I'm so sorry for the discrimination and trauma you've experienced. Thank you for being willing to talk about it and benefit others with your experiences.
Thanks for sharing, Audrey. As a longtime Christian, Catholic listener of yours, I still respect and appreciate you to no end. Just a couple points on this:
(1) I don't think your conclusions here are, in the main, necessarily incompatible with what Christian metaphysical reflection from the very early Church onwards has held: that all creaturely being is a participation in God's being, that evil is nothing substantial but rather a privation, and that to the extent that anything IS at all, it is good, true, beautiful, and indeed "inseparably" united to God. So when we *experience* separation from God, it's in fact on the side of our experience, not on the side of God's nature or disposition.
(2) Catholic doctrine does present Hell as a hypothetical possibility, but that's it. Really, it's an attempt to account for these *experiences* we have (again, not reality!) of separation from God and for our capacities for self-imprisonment within certain states (e.g., when we allow ourselves to be consumed with hatred), along with the belief that God always invites us and never "forces" us. If you've read _The Last Battle_ in the Narnia series, think of the dwarfs who prefer to think they're in their own little world even though they're *actually* in the middle of Aslan's country! So Hell is a hypothesis that there *could* exist people like those dwarfs. But this has almost nothing in common with the ideas you were raised with, don't you think?
Hi, this is my first time reading your blog because Twitter decided to highlight it to me. I had first come across you via recovery from pornography materials.
I was trying to understand what you believe about hell. It seems you reject both conscious hell and aniliation. Do you believe all get saved eventually?
Yes to this. Love is winning and love has won. Of course this is true. After all, this is God we are talking about.
All? So… Hitler? Stalin? What about the devil himself? Everyone gets a pass? Gimme a break. Divine justice is a complete joke now apparently.
If we insist on the idea of divine justice, then we either believe that the cross accomplished divine justice or not. Why would God send Jesus to die, only to have his death not accomplish the actual goal?
Of course He accomplished the goal. But people still have to choose to exercise their own free will in order to personally receive that justice (or pardon) for themselves. Many people reject God’s free gift and willingly choose Hell. God won’t override someone else’s free will. He can’t rescue someone who doesn’t want to be rescued. Are you aware of how much scripture you have to cut out and throw away in order to hold your viewpoint?
Thank you for sharing this Audrey. In the past decade I’ve gone through what sounds like a remarkably similar journey of unraveling religious trauma and a very late OCD diagnosis.
The phrase you slipped in - unable to experience the “feeling of certainty” - is interesting to see in my current context. Treatment for OCD requires embracing uncertainty. I can’t have all the answers and I’m slowly learning how to live with that.
For me - I took a similar path. This view of hell is too terrible for me to live with in a healthy way. The looming threat of “believe... or else” just couldn’t work with my brain. And I’m not one to half-believe or somewhat assent. So I walked away. Even just reading this brought back those feelings deeply embedded in my chest. Probably a sign I still have more to process.
Interestingly - While’s coming from a very different intellectual perspective, the former trad writer Steve Skojec has a remarkably similar experience that’s also OCD tinted. His writing now focuses around themes of thr impossibility if knowing + struggling with a religion that makes lofty claims which aren’t actually taken to logical conclusions by most followers. Just one example.
https://open.substack.com/pub/steveskojec/p/if-god-is-not-is-everything-permissible?r=5vf3e&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
Long way of saying - thank you for sharing the excerpt and making me feel less alone. I’m glad for the freedom you have found.
...wish there was an edit button. This is the more relevant post I meant to share.
https://open.substack.com/pub/steveskojec/p/is-a-religious-upbringing-a-kind?r=5vf3e&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post